Well is he being racist asking to see the face of the woman he is speaking to.?
Reminds me of a pub in Boston Lincs, where if you walked in with part of your face covered by cloth a rottweiler would vault over the bar and pin you to the wall and the landlord would come and explain that they had been robbed and the dog had been trained to pin anyone who dare not show their face.
Personally, I think Jack's right. If you don't want to show your face, use the telephone.
No, I don't think so -especially as -as far as I could tell from the BBC article- he is not demanding that the veil be removed. I think he has a point in that England/Britain is a country where facial expression is a significant part of the communication process. No-one would call him racist if he asked his constituents to speak English when they came to his surgery.
I find it very disconcerting to speak to just a pair of eyes -certainly for anything deeper than the pleasantries of strangers. Much as I find it disconcerting to speak to people who won't look me in the eye. I think you need both facial expressions and eye contact in addition to speech for effective verbal communnication. But then I was brought up in a country where veils were not the norm, so perhaps that is a racist viewpoint.
Either way, the reporting of this issue suggests that he is being honest and yet sensitive about the subject. Which is a bit odd. I wonder what else might "unfold" from this? lol
Facial expression is an aid to communication true, but Straw was a damned fool. He is male and he is not family. Why should he think they would remove the veil for him, given that you would expect him to have extensive knowledge of the subject, since he once was Foreign Secretary.
I think he has a point as others have said we read so much into peoples expressions.
It does create uneasy when people do not understand. Each culture needs to give some ground, but this should not be a one way street. I tend to think people feel its been all given and no take and with the current climate feel their efforts are not being appreciated and infact think they are turning against their hosts if they don't get their own way.
Its going to be interesting to see how it all works out. Can a true multicultural UK really work or is it a dream.
. Why should he think they would remove the veil for him
I don't think he does "think they would", I think he just hopes that they would. I didn't read any comment about him refusing to see or being discriminatory towards those who refused. (Not to say that it isn't the case, but so far, no evidence)
When I went to Morocco, some of the more remote Greek Islands, inland Brazil and other highly religous places, I covered up (despite the discomfort) to respect local feelings. Is uncovering so different? He's not asking for bikinis, or anything different from what the locals are wearing. He's just asking for them to consider conforming to the customs of the land they are living in. As long as he doesn't give them inferior treatment if they refuse, I think I can live with this.
I think the comment was OK. He wasn't denying anybody anything, just stating he felt uncomfortable and making a request.
Interestingly, I didn't know that Morocco had banned the hijab in certain areas;
http//english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8768AB46-DA03-43DA-80E9-13EC5A074EEE.htm
I still think it was stupid. They wear the damned thing so that no men outside the family will see their faces. It is a religious/cultural thing. Effectively, he has stopped them from seeing him in the future. Their menfolk will think, if they go to his surgery, that he has seen their uncovered faces. That might lead to "honour killings".
If the UK wanted to insist that they make this adaptation, they should have stipulated so when the people were granted entry.
I still think it was stupid. They wear the damned thing so that no men outside the family will see their faces. It is a religious/cultural thing. Effectively, he has stopped them from seeing him in the future. Their menfolk will think, if they go to his surgery, that he has seen their uncovered faces. That might lead to "honour killings".
If the UK wanted to insist that they make this adaptation, they should have stipulated so when the people were granted entry.
Round about the same time they explained that "honor killings" may fly in the old country, but it really doesn't fly in the UK.
It has yet to be found where the prophet says a woman must veil her face in the Koran. These are more cultural than religious guidelines. A woman is asked to be modest. Some intreptations of modesty are extreme. These are patriarchial societies.
If the Dutch, the most liberal of societities can say enough is enough I think it's about time UK either joined that chorus or throw caution to the winds and becoming a Muslim/European country.
I wasn't looking at right and wrong, I was looking at what is. I think the treatment of these women is terrible, I have three daughters, for goodness sake.
But the police are unable to protect the women who step out of line. I don't say they will all be killed, but you can bet that if a woman goes to Straw's surgeries, she will need another witness to verify that she did not unveil, and that kind of makes communication even less free.
There have been a number of reports, of 'honour killings', I have heard several in depth reports on NPR/BBC. Many don't trust the police in the first place, they have a bad rep in the communities, just doing their jobs earned that before they could hire people from the communities, who knew the customs.
Londonsquare you will find the mistrust is something they get from their own country. many of these people come from area's of the world where the police etc can do the most terrible things to people so they think all police/enforcement types are the same.
On a grand scale of crime how many honour killings have their been? How many other murders have been committed that don't get solved and do not make the press???
Not sure how long ago it was but the UK made it illegal to do female circumsion. This is part of many north african countries cultures. I did not see them protesting in the streets of London etc etc,
As I said its a hard balance.
This sort of b/s annoyes me when in rome do as the romans, do i traveled a lot and always honours the customs and traditions of the country i visit .
if you want to live in a country eccept its rules keep religion and tradition to your self .
i agree with him show me who you are or shut the f**k up
This sort of b/s annoyes me when in rome do as the romans, do i traveled a lot and always honours the customs and traditions of the country i visit .
if you want to live in a country eccept its rules keep religion and tradition to your self .
i agree with him show me who you are or shut the f**k up
It would be nice if we had set that, "when in Rome...." as an example. In Italy, they had to learn to cook fish and chips because Brit visitors shied away from the wonderful local foods. Even worse, we had an empire and forced the locals conform to our rules.
My favourite blogger on things British, The Curmudgeon, thinks that Straw was wrong.
"An empty suit has expressed some concern over the way some people dress. A woman with "a broad Lancashire accent" came to the empty suit's constituency advice bureau wearing a veil. The suit was discomfited by "apparent incongruity between the signals which indicate common bonds - the entirely English accent, the couple's education (wholly in the UK) - and the fact of the veil". The suit was also discomfited "about talking to someone 'face-to-face' who I could not see". This was because "the value of a meeting ... is so that you can - almost literally - see what the other person means ... So many of the judgments we all make about other people come from seeing their faces.""
For the full text http//www.thecurmudgeonly.blogspot.com/
The original article
http//www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1889081,00.html
if a woman goes to Straw's surgeries, she will need another witness to verify that she did not unveil, and that kind of makes communication even less free.
If her family were that strict, she would not be allowed to go alone anyway. The more extreme forbid conversation with men outside the family.
if a woman goes to Straw's surgeries, she will need another witness to verify that she did not unveil, and that kind of makes communication even less free.
If her family were that strict, she would not be allowed to go alone anyway. The more extreme forbid conversation with men outside the family.
True, and in the article he says there will always be someone else there.