British Expatriate Network - Jack Straw and the veil

mrbungle2103 @ Wed 22 Nov, 2006 7:59 am Wrote:

Someone told me that some BA planes have crosses on their tail fins (and no not the Union Jack). Anyone know if that's right?

Just the Cross of St. George - no other crosses.

Yeah, figured that was crap.

Now, do people who follow the religion of the Jedi have to keep their light saber under their uniform?

We don't allow lightsabers on our aeroplanes, if you don't mind. Bloody dangerous. lol

These are the ones I think should be banned. After all how many of us women want to wear this. It isn't religion, it's tradition, patriarchal tradition at that, no more women in trousers, mini skirts, and can you tell for sure it's a woman under there, the Israelis say they can't, that's why they keep shooting women in the Gaza.

I just google-imaged for burqa and the first thing to come up was Burqa Babes. I strongly urge BA to allow this dress code.

you mean these

Too bloody right. I'd love to see Jack Straw talking to her and then say "I really wouldn't be able to recognise her again."

annie @ Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:44 Wrote:

These are the ones I think should be banned. After all how many of us women want to wear this. It isn't religion, it's tradition, patriarchal tradition at that, no more women in trousers, mini skirts, and can you tell for sure it's a woman under there, the Israelis say they can't, that's why they keep shooting women in the Gaza.

Good excuse, 'cos we all know it is perfectly legal and acceptable to extra judicially execute a man but not a woman.
Also, I'm not sure the Israelis have so much standing to lecture anyone of religious rights and wrongs or the role of women in said religion.
But that aside, I don't personally approve of the way women are treated in certain schools of islam, keeping girls out of education for example. I would campaign against it and support activities to promote the education of women in places lie Afghanistan.
However, many of the women I have met in London who choose to wear traditional dress are educated, employed in good jobs and not obviously oppressed. They choose to dress the way they do. I might find that choice baffling - but it is their right to make that choice.
I preach my liberal western values, which are at odds with what I see as an outdated patriarcal religion - but one of those values is that people have the right to freedom of religion and expression.
If I am who I claim to be, what right have I to BAN someone from wearing the clothes of their choice?
That includes those detailed above.

I take your point Rob, but I do think that once ground is gained it won't be long before all women are forcibily given a dress code that veers toward a form of modesty aimed at not exciting a man who can't control himself.
When men get out of the abortion debate I'll believe that women can wear what they want.
Bra burning regards, I'm off to the kitchen lol

annie @ Wed Nov 22, 2006 14:56 Wrote:

I take your point Rob, but I do think that once ground is gained it won't be long before all women are forcibily given a dress code that veers toward a form of modesty aimed at not exciting a man who can't control himself.
When men get out of the abortion debate I'll believe that women can wear what they want.
Bra burning regards, I'm off to the kitchen :lol:

Annie:
I agree, men should not be determining what women can wear - that would include Jack Straw demanding that they do not wear veils.
I'd go further - women should not be determining what other women wear based on their cultural norms and values. That isn't to say people cannot express a point of view - but as you and I both know - people should be free to ignore us.

As to the whole thing with men controlling themselves, this is a very dangerous linkage and one that starts to give credibility to the reasoning of the extremists. The men who insist on women wearing burqas do so to contol women not other men and men who seek to control women do so to have more sex rather than less :shock:

As I've explained, I have know women, intelligent, educated and westernized, who choose to wear certain traditional clothes. They were neither oppressed on controlled and were quite capable of telling males in general where to go jump. It would be highly patronizing and insulting, not to mention totally hypocritical, for me to tell such women what they should and should not wear.

Rob S @ Mon 27 Nov, 2006 8:45 am Wrote:

- that would include Jack Straw demanding that they do not wear veils.

I thought it was a request, not a demand :???:

monster @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:12 pm Wrote:

Rob S @ Mon 27 Nov, 2006 8:45 am Wrote:

- that would include Jack Straw demanding that they do not wear veils.

I thought it was a request, not a demand :???:

But they go to him as supplicants :!:

londonsquare @ Tue 28 Nov, 2006 3:50 pm Wrote:

monster @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:12 pm Wrote:

Rob S @ Mon 27 Nov, 2006 8:45 am Wrote:

- that would include Jack Straw demanding that they do not wear veils.

I thought it was a request, not a demand :???:

But they go to him as supplicants :!:

Hmmm. Suppicant. Humble petitioner. Who says they have to be humble?

londonsquare @ Tue Nov 28, 2006 15:50 Wrote:

monster @ Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:12 pm Wrote:

Rob S @ Mon 27 Nov, 2006 8:45 am Wrote:

- that would include Jack Straw demanding that they do not wear veils.

I thought it was a request, not a demand :???:

But they go to him as supplicants :!:

Isn't that when you go before the Crown, or a representative of the crown?
Straw is an MP and thus a representative of the people to the crown.
Although in another context he is also a minister of the crown.... but not in his surgeries...
damn lack of separation of powers.... how is anyone to know when they are supplicating!

OK, I used the wrong word, officially that is.

When most members of the great unwashed, members of this board excluded, go to see an MP, they do not feel it is a meeting of equals. The MP has authority and connections so it is, in their minds, a "little person" complaining to, or requesting something of, a "big person".