British Expatriate Network

Because as members of a civil society there are obligations of communal living. Belief in metaphysics uses energy and detracts from the responsibility one has to their fellow human beings. Your responsibility is to be fully engaged in human affairs not wasting time praying to phantoms.

Does this responsibility extend to acknowledging that some fellow humans have a deep-seated need to explain the universe in spiritual form, rather than the incomplete theories of science? What's the issue with someone practising a religion in privacy and not getting all up in your face with it?

/world without spirituality = depressing and no fun
//according to science bees can't fly

Im with you there pal respect somedoby right to hold whatever spititual views they choose to .
. most times religion is debated and ridiculed cus somebody somewhere got in your face with it ....

C hurch doors are closed during services thats how it should be, and nobody disagreeing with the activities inside has a right to knock the doors down * lawbreaking being the exception *

Says who?? What are he qualifying criteria for "man's darkest time" ?

One would have thought that when the Roman Empire was slaughtering germanic hordes and putting down Bodicea, that might have been a darker time.

Or the 13 million that were killed by Genghis Khan might be considered to be a darker time.

So what made it man's darkest time? You could argue that dropping atomic bombs on Japan was slightly overcast. How about the 69 million people that were killed in WWII, wasn't that even the slightest bit dark.

No...the period of time when Christ was born, was most definitely NOT man's darkest time, you far underestimate man's capacity for evil if you think that.

Says who?? What are he qualifying criteria for "man's darkest time" ?

One would have thought that when the Roman Empire was slaughtering germanic hordes and putting down Bodicea, that might have been a darker time.

Or the 13 million that were killed by Genghis Khan might be considered to be a darker time.

So what made it man's darkest time? You could argue that dropping atomic bombs on Japan was slightly overcast. How about the 69 million people that were killed in WWII, wasn't that even the slightest bit dark.

No...the period of time when Christ was born, was most definitely NOT man's darkest time, you far underestimate man's capacity for evil if you think that.

I have read this argument with interest and I am disturbed by three things.

1. The frequent use of the word "worship".

That word doesn't sit well with me. It's like calling somebody "sir" or kowtowing to the well-heeled. I don't do it. I don't worship anyone or anything. I believe in what is written in the Bible, yet I find no place to actively "worship" in my life.

2. The fact that I find no fault in any of the atheist views.

I have felt this before in Britnet discussions. Most arguments are well thought out and reasoned, and I don't feel at all offended that they don't quite match my own views. I do feel that I might experience some emptiness if I thought I was quite alone and anything I might "say" to God I was really only saying to myself. I only do it when I have no-one with whom I can share my innermost thoughts.

3. The fact that last night I prayed to God for help and guidance

When I was upset and despairing over a personal problem with literally no-one to turn to but my own self, I found myself praying for help. This doesn't bother me because I don't know if I really believe - frankly it probably doesn't matter whether I believe or not; the very act of putting my fears and despair into words made me able to get to sleep. (And no, I don't do it out loud on my knees - it's more of a thought process.)

I am not sure why I should be wrong to consider the feelings of people around me if I were to announce that I don't feel anything and that the stuff which goes on at church means little to me. I know some very kind people and I would not like to hurt them. I still go to church and am more involved than ever. I keep on saying I am not going to do Sunday School or whatever else they want me to do, but I find myself drawn in more and more. Some would say it's the people drawing me in, but actually it's me; I find the words coming out of my mouth before I realise what I am saying. No-one was more surprised than I was to hear me volunteer not only to teach Sunday School for another year, but to rewrite the curriculum, organise the resources and act as sub plus leader! Believe me - I fight it every Sunday. I often say I am not going to do it any more, but I go along and hear myself volunteering to take on another duty.

Make of that what you will. I just know that the more I fight against it the more I am drawn in - sounds very cultish, doesn't it! It really isn't it. I am intelligent. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be questioning it all the time. I believe that Christianity is basically a good thing. I don't have a problem with my atheist friends - I have more of a problem with people who profess to be Christians in one breath and backstab in the next. I do not profess to be "A Christian", but I do try to follow Christian teachings as far as possible. There is nothing wrong with that. It's equivalent to what most good people do anyway.

If there is a heaven or an afterlife - it will happen whether we believe it or not. Likewise if there is none. How can one feel that one is eternally damned if life really does end when you die? At that point there is nothing to feel anyway.

My only objection to any of this discussion is to the cynicism and the declarations on both sides that one viewpoint is right and the other is wrong. There are no absolutes, in my opinion. How can there be when everyone is an individual and no two people see things the in exact same way?

Thank you for letting me muse - if you are still reading this - bravo! ;)

MMM there are no absolutes ?? i think there is .


People who believe in GOD dont have absolutes except one absolute fact they believe in something * a creator call it what you will *made all of life .
but differ on such things name of the god , wether jesus was the masiah ,what happens to us after death ,etc and other numerous differances that the differant faiths can never agree on.

Agnostics have no absolutes in there world, there could be a creater ,or not ,are not sure either way ,but tend to buy into some sort of creater /supreme higher being mantra just in case there is .

TRUE... atheist like myself however do have absolutes ..

They believe in the ABSOLUTE that there NEVER was a god ,there isnt one NOW and NEVER will be ,and they believe that ABSOLUTLY .

Any atheist who has doubts about the existance of a god is in my opinion not a atheist, but either a agnostic( fence sitter ) or a very confused believer .

I pray to God that I don't need an Enigma machine everytime I read JohnA's posts. wink

:lol:

............................

John, you missed my point entirely. You have once again lumped everyone together. There are no absolutes - I am talking about indisputable facts. It is not an indisputable fact that God exists or that God does not exist. Belief and disbelief are a matter of opinion and personal experience, therefore not absolute fact.

Saying it like that you are right. belief or not is a matter of personal experiance and informed opinion and in that respect one is just as valid as the other .
We disagree but i do respect your opinion and your right to hold it :smile:

I think this thread has run its course .

You forgot to write in capitals "I SEE DISCRIMINATION HERE"


8)

Interesting post.

Perhaps people who say they believe in God don't actually believe. Maybe they just wish there was a God so their lives are less empty or meaningless.

Maybe the great modern day philosopher Jesse Ventura is right after all, "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers."

That's organised religion.

It's usually much more tolerant and easy-going when things aren't written down.

Check out these crackpots and tell me they're right.

http//www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i2/animals.asp

Sounds like Thatcher explaining her behavior with her kitchen cabinet.


And back on topic - this MIT economist thinks religion is good for you. He makes a good argument too.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/...n_goo.html