British Expatriate Network

After I read this quote from Rumsfeld, responding to the soldier who put him on the spot in Kuwait yesterday, regarding the lack of armour on their vehicles, I wondered if Donald had run out of jokes now or is he just an old buffer?

"I don't know what the facts are but somebody's certainly going to sit down with him and find out what he knows that they may not know, and make sure he knows what they know that he may not know, and that's a good thing. I think it's a very constructive exchange," Rumsfeld said of the questioner.

I am getting fed up with the "Support Our Troops" magnets on cars. Should this not start higher up the chain, like from the top? How about a car magnet that says "Fight Wars on the Cheap" - a bit more honest and that is what I read now when I see those misguided icons of supposed support from folks that don't seem to understand that their troops are under a lot of pressure, with indadequate equipment from supposedly the richest, best equipped country in the world evil

I'm amazed at how arrogant they have all become (not saying they weren't before) but things are certainly getting worse...

Andrew )

Rumsfield's responses were just infuriating. They were to me, how do you think the troops felt about the following

"You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time"

Okay, wait a minute, (1) didn't we decide when to do this? (2) didn't we think it would be a breeze? (3) what the hell kind of army do you want to have? How much money do we spend every day on defense again ($1.5billion or something, right?)? Jeez

"You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can be blown up . . . And you can have an up-armored Humvee and it can be blown up"

Oh, thank you for sharing with us that profound bit of military wisdom. Uhh, believe it or not, the troops you are addressing already know that as they are out their risking their lives for you every day in what amounts to a very thick tin can. They know only too well that a direct hit can kill them -- that hardly answers their desire to protected against lesser dangers. Actually maybe this response can work in another context -- everyone is currently complaining they can't get a flu shot. Rumsfield has a perfect response, "well, you can have all the flu vaccine in the world and still die of cancer."

Unfortunately Rumsfeld was only stating facts.

The US military is the best equipted in the world but for every piece of equipment in service there is weapon that can destroy it.

Also like most of the present administration, he believed that the war would be short. They will never admit that it was all a big mistake.

Rummy was never in active service was he? I mean i know he joined one of the services but he didn't go to war did he?
I'm more and more of the opinion that men of his age should not be allowed to hold positions such as his. This war has more in common with WW1 than anything since. The kids are just cannon fodder.
It upset me to hear his response but i hope and pray the guy who asked the question isn't penalised, wouldn't surprise me one bit if he is.

True, but America has suffered more casualties that it would have done it it had provided up-armored HumVees and other vehicles from the outset. As Texas said this was a planned war, not some urgent response to attack (like th efirst gulf war). I knew this would end up in an insurgency and I know bugger all about military strategy - if I knew Rumsfeld and Wolfwitz should have known. If they didn't they are breathtakingly incompentent and unfit for office - if they did they are either deeply cynical or... well... brethtakingly incompetent and unfit for office.

Personally I suspect that Rumsfeld doesn't care - war is inevitably bloody and soldiers get killed - its an entirley volunteer army and so they should stop whining (my view of his view - not my personal opinion - just to be clear).

At the very least Rumsfeld's remarks must have further undermined morale amongst the troops and their families. I certainly wouldn't feel confident in a leader that showed such a cavalier attitude to my safety.

Aside from Powell none of Bush's cabinet saw active duty some, like Cheney avoided service altogether. They are all millionaires too.

I spent much of my working life in companies involved in designing Military Equipment. My last company General Dynamics of Canada was responsible for the design and development of much of the A1M1 tank.

The most important consideration was always the equipment and how to protect it against impact from not only the munitions that an enemy throws at you, but also the inherent violent shock and vibration that is generated by the tank. One of the most violent is the gun firing.

In the field of war, men can almost always be replaced but some of the most important components cannot.

The other reason often determining how much armour to add is the affect it has on fuel consumption. Often speed and agility can save troops. But if you run out of fuel in the middle of the battlefield, the nearest fuel supply could be hours away.

It also comes down to how much you can squeese out of the taxpayer. And as much as this administration has tried to convince Americans they are at war, many still question why.

Keith, I don't doubt that there are compromises in military vehicle design - but clearly there is something that can be done to up armor hum-vees and other vehicles. I say this because that is exactly what is now being done.

My question is why this was not done prior to the invasion so that these vehicles would be available. I read something at the time that said that their were less than 100 armored humvees available to deploy to Iraq when the insurgency kicked off. Britain was no better - just a little luckier - we had a reserve supply of Land Rovers in Northern Ireland which were rushed out to Basra; however one has to ask why they weren't in Kuwait ready and waiting.

Britain has logistics problems too and during a Parliamentary grilling, Geoff Hoon (a Rummy trainee by the sounds of it) blamed it upon Army Logistics Corps' inability to offload transport ships fast enough.

However, the British RLC cannot offload what is not actually on the ships to begin with evil

agreed. as I said, the availability of Armored Land Rovers seems to have been a product of good fortune rather than Good Planning.

As for Hoon, I could tell you a few tales about him... :o

He did see "active service," but just not in a war. Much as I detest Rumsfield, I will give him credit for serving. It does not have to actually be in a war to be "real" military service. (But it does need to be more than the maybe put in an appearance every few months or so, if you feel like it, Bush type service.)

Should have chosen my words better - non bar Powell have seen combat.

8) His words were not really well put, but as been said they were the facts as they stood.

Like most Governments they cut costs, just like the UK did with the Royal Navy. Numerous UK Governments built the UK navy around NATO and to cut cost, built ships of Ali and uniforms of poly. Then the Falklands happened and they find out that we have to send Ships miles alway without Nato support. Something that they were not really designed to do.
They then find out that Ali ships sink very easily and that poly uniforms melt on the skin when near fire. So now its all changed, more ships built with steel and return to larger Carriers and cotton uniforms.

Same here. The US has the best equipment, but they still cut costs, plus there was a certain naivety about this conflict on behalf of higher ups and I think the UK are the only ones that got a handle on that. Due to part the experience of Northern Ireland. Even after the Black Watch moved North, there seemed to be less troops killed compared to what the US had experienced. I feel this was most due to the policing method they were using.

When you speak a good job and you don't come up with the goods, you p@ss alot of people off and thats what they are now facing. Its easy to turn people to your way of thinking if you are not getting what was promised. Thats how gangs and cults work.

Caring for the Wounded in Iraq from The New England Journal of Medicine.
An observation based on experience is that no(or very few) one goes through a LOUD explosion and suffers no ill effects, many come on years later hearing loss for example.
See(Warning-Extremely graphic pictures)
http//content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/24/2476