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Today I narrowly avoided a heated debate with a dear yet misguided friend who believes GWB is the best thing to happen to the USA - even with a son in the marines about to be deployed to Iraq. I avoided it because I want her to remain a friend,

I decided to look on GWB's website for evidence of a plan to end the violence in Iraq and the decrease the hostility felt towards the US by other countries and have found none.

So I challenge those of you who are pro-Bush to convince me, a Kerry supporter and registered Democrat, that actually GWB is doing a great job and should be given a second term. I'm serious. Right now, I can't fathom how intelligent people can even give him a moment's consideration.
The "occupation" is definitely not ending any time soon.

My brother has had to cut short his tour in Australia, so that he can report back to take command of a unit in Germany. They are to be deployed in Iraq 12 months from now. evil

kentgirl Wrote:
Right now, I can't fathom how intelligent people can even give him a moment's consideration.


Well, nobody has taken you up on your challenge yet. Surely anyone who votes for Bush who isn't profiteering from Iraq/Haliburton/oil etc is a bit thick?

Perhaps I should have posted on Monday morning rather than Friday evening.... let's see what transpires!
You won't get any arguement from me. I agree with your points. I don't get it either.
It does seem "wrong" somehow to vote against the party who you voted for before.
This link may explain the mind set of the Bush supporters
http//www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/html/new_10_21_04.html#1
I don't entirely know the answer of your question and as someone who lives north of the border, it may be very presumptious of me to theorise, especially as the only part of the U.S I've been to in the last two years is Buffalo, which is pretty solidly democrat.

But I'm going to give it a go.

I think first you can never underestimate the psychological impact of 9/11. As Britons we know what it's like to be bombed by the IRA. We have the collective memory of the Second World War. Nevertheless if a plane had crashed into the Lloyds building in London and another into the Houses of Parliament or Buckingham Palace and 5,000 people had been killed we'd be pretty shaken up.

In the U.S. Timothy Mcveigh and Pearl Harbor not withstanding, Americans are even more shocked by the 9/11 attacks than is perhaps imaginable because it's so unexpected and punctures the idea of fortress America, in addition to the grief and horror of the event.

Security and terrorism are the number one issues. If Clinton's slogan in 1992 was "It's the economy stupid" , Bush's might as well be "It's the security of America stupid."

Now this is where it all gets a bit murky, for Brits or Canadians or most politically aware people internationally. But many Americans (only 14 per cent of whom hold passports) will believe the president if they are told that invading Iraq is part of the war on terrorism. I and many others absolutely do not believe this. I said in this very forum long before the invasion that at best Washington is barking up the wrong tree and at worst creating a clash of civilisations and inviting every terrorist nutbar and insurgent to come into Iraq and take a pot-shot at the U.S - in effect creating more terrorism, not less.

Americans are not stupid people, many don't buy the WMD argument. But they are a frightened people or at the very least a nervous people. And Bush is helped by the fact that he removed an unambiguous tyrant. Saddam wasn't a Fidel Castro or Hugo Chavez, but the man who gassed the Kurds ans did unspeakable things to his people and then got one of his sons to do the things even Saddam couldn't stomach. He's an easy hate figure, who's taunted Americans before. So if George says he had to go as part of the war on terrorism, many Americans (remembering only 14 per cent of whom have passports) are probably willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt.

Also in the U.S the president is also the Queen.

Sounds odd. It's true. In the American system the president is not just the national or governmental leader, he's also the head of state.

This goes some way to explaining why Americans have so much more trust in their leader than Brits would ever have for Tony Blair. And here in Canada, politicians are bums and PM is just the head plumber. But in the U.S the president is a source of national inspiration that you'd never see in a parliamentary system.

So Bush has played very well on the "you should be scared" factor; the "Iraq was necessary" factor and perhaps most importantly, as head of state, on the patriotism factor so mystifying to outsiders.

Add in the fact that Americans can be a seriously provincial bunch who didn't know where Iraq was on a map until recently and you have a picture that's building. Those factors have cut deeply into areas where the Democrats normally do well, among women voters,
among Hispanics or among right-wing democrats who just feel Kerry's not up to it.

There is the Kerry factor. He's not a fantastic opposition. He appeals for international support for the war. This may sound sensible to outsiders but many Americans have strong isolationist instincts and don't like the idea of bending on one knee to the U.N or having to listen to lectures from France and Germany.

There's also the changing horses in midstream factor. Do Americans really want to elect this guy Kerry when Bush has only just got started on his war against terror? Better the devil you know....

Lee Wrote:
Also in the U.S the president is also the Queen.


That explains it! I KNEW there was something behind that whole anti gay marriage thing.

lol lol lol lol
A good write up Lee.

Lee Wrote:
Also in the U.S the president is also the Queen.


Or King,

The UK magazine "History Today" some time ago printed an article saying that the American system of government was based on what we had in England in Charle's 1 or 11's time (I cannot remember which one).

"History Today"? :D

Well, the industrial revolution caused a shift to urban conurbations by what had been largely aggrarien population and communities and so forth. This led to very poor living conditions, and it is General Samuel Peeps who gives a particularly harrowing account of one man whom he describes thus: "He had scurvy and rickets and was covered from head to foot in festering sores. All in all he was quite the most ghastly apparition of a man I had ever seen."

I see. And who exactly was this poor unfortunate?

That's you that is. That's the nicest thing he could find to say.

CAPTION "HISTORY TODAY"
[Cut to set as before]
Prof Good evening, once again I'm joined by Professor F.J.Lewis, Emeritus
professor of History at All Saints College, Oxford. I understand that
some viewers felt that last week we rather skated over the topic of
Great Britain 1931-38, the Austerity Years. I can only offer them my
apologies and pledge that Professor Lewis and myself shall make every
endeavour to fully explore tonight's topic of discussion The 1905
Sebastopol Uprising. Professor Lewis, do you feel as many do that Sebastopol
was indeed the birthplace of the Russian Revolution?
Lewis See people who talk like this [makes Donald Duck noise]? That's you,
that is. That's you talking your best.
Prof I see. You see girls running like this? [mimes wiggling arms up and
down with no synchronisation] That's you that is. That's how you run.
Lewis See your bike? It's a girl's bike.
Prof I do not own a bicycle.
Lewis You do, and it's a girl's bike.
Prof Well I'd just to say...
Lewis It's... for... girls.
Prof You see those workman's tents in the road?
Lewis I have observed them.
Prof That's your house. That's where you go on holiday.
Lewis See this? This is my drink. You can't have none. [removes a small
bottle from his pocket; drinks] Oh yum yum tasty.
Prof Oh I've just remembered..
Lewis Sorry, I'm busy drinking my drink.
Prof Your dad phoned me up the other day.
Lewis My father? What did he say?
Prof [makes Donald Duck noise]
Lewis [fingers in ears] Laaalaalalaa! Can't hear you! Speak louder, louder,
louder, louder!
Prof Professor Lewis, if we might return to the matter in hand..
Lewis Yes.
Prof I have here a copy of your book [pulls out a book], "Origins of the
Crimean War". POO! Urgh! POO! It smells of poo!
Lewis That's because it's been inside your mum's bra.
Prof [puts down book] Well it would appear..
Lewis That's why it's so very smelly.
Prof It would appear that the Sebastopol question is one that will continue
to cause heated debate between historians. Professor Lewis, thank you
very much.
Lewis [holding nose] Thank you.
lol Excellent - saw Prof. Lewis and his "friend" live in Plymouth a few years back.
This is quite good on why not to vote for him...

By Scott McConnell, The American Conservative

There is little in John Kerry's persona or platform that appeals to conservatives. The flip-flopper charge--the centerpiece of the Republican campaign against Kerry--seems overdone, as Kerry's contrasting votes are the sort of baggage any senator of long service is likely to pick up. (Bob Dole could tell you all about it.) But Kerry is plainly a conventional liberal and no candidate for a future edition of Profiles in Courage. In my view, he will always deserve censure for his vote in favor of the Iraq War in 2002.

But this election is not about John Kerry. If he were to win, his dearth of charisma would likely ensure him a single term. He would face challenges from within his own party and a thwarting of his most expensive initiatives by a Republican Congress. Much of his presidency would be absorbed by trying to clean up the mess left to him in Iraq. He would be constrained by the swollen deficits and a ripe target for the next Republican nominee.

It is, instead, an election about the presidency of George W. Bush.



To the surprise of virtually everyone, Bush has turned into an important president, and in many ways the most radical America has had since the 19th century. Because he is the leader of America's conservative party, he has become the Left's perfect foil--its dream candidate. The libertarian writer Lew Rockwell has mischievously noted parallels between Bush and Russia's last tsar, Nicholas II: both gained office as a result of family connections, both initiated an unnecessary war that shattered their countries' budgets. Lenin needed the calamitous reign of Nicholas II to create an opening for the Bolsheviks.

Bush has behaved like a caricature of what a right-wing president is supposed to be, and his continuation in office will discredit any sort of conservatism for generations. The launching of an invasion against a country that posed no threat to the U.S., the doling out of war profits and concessions to politically favored corporations, the financing of the war by ballooning the deficit to be passed on to the nation's children, the ceaseless drive to cut taxes for those outside the middle class and working poor: it is as if Bush sought to resurrect every false 1960s-era left-wing cliche about predatory imperialism and turn it into administration policy. Add to this his nation-breaking immigration proposal--Bush has laid out a mad scheme to import immigrants to fill any job where the wage is so low that an American can't be found to do it--and you have a presidency that combines imperialist Right and open-borders Left in a uniquely noxious cocktail.

During the campaign, few have paid attention to how much the Bush presidency has degraded the image of the United States in the world. Of course there has always been "anti-Americanism." After the Second World War many European intellectuals argued for a "Third Way" between American-style capitalism and Soviet communism, and a generation later Europe's radicals embraced every ragged "anti-imperialist" cause that came along. In South America, defiance of "the Yanqui" always draws a crowd. But Bush has somehow managed to take all these sentiments and turbo-charge them. In Europe and indeed all over the world, he has made the United States despised by people who used to be its friends, by businessmen and the middle classes, by moderate and sensible liberals. Never before have democratic foreign governments needed to demonstrate disdain for Washington to their own electorates in order to survive in office. The poll numbers are shocking. In countries like Norway, Germany, France, and Spain, Bush is liked by about seven percent of the populace. In Egypt, recipient of huge piles of American aid in the past two decades, some 98 percent have an unfavorable view of the United States. It's the same throughout the Middle East.

Bush has accomplished this by giving the U.S. a novel foreign-policy doctrine under which it arrogates to itself the right to invade any country it wants if it feels threatened. It is an American version of the Brezhnev Doctrine, but the latter was at least confined to Eastern Europe. If the analogy seems extreme, what is an appropriate comparison when a country manufactures falsehoods about a foreign government, disseminates them widely, and invades the country on the basis of those falsehoods? It is not an action that any American president has ever taken before. It is not something that "good" countries do. It is the main reason that people all over the world who used to consider the United States a reliable and necessary bulwark of world stability now see us as a menace to their own peace and security.

These sentiments mean that as long as Bush is president, we have no real allies in the world, no friends to help us dig out from the Iraq quagmire. More tragically, they mean that if terrorists succeed in striking at the United States in another 9/11-type attack, many in the world will not only think of the American victims but also of the thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians killed and maimed by American armed forces. The hatred Bush has generated has helped immeasurably those trying to recruit anti-American terrorists--indeed his policies are the gift to terrorism that keeps on giving, as the sons and brothers of slain Iraqis think how they may eventually take their own revenge. Only the seriously deluded could fail to see that a policy so central to America's survival as a free country as getting hold of loose nuclear materials and controlling nuclear proliferation requires the willingness of foreign countries to provide full, 100 percent co-operation. Making yourself into the world's most hated country is not an obvious way to secure that help.

I've heard people who have known George W. Bush for decades and served prominently in his father's administration say that he could not possibly have conceived of the doctrine of pre-emptive war by himself, that he was essentially taken for a ride by people with a pre-existing agenda to overturn Saddam Hussein. Bush's public performances plainly show him to be a man who has never read or thought much about foreign policy. So the inevitable questions are: who makes the key foreign-policy decisions in the Bush presidency, who controls the information flow to the president, how are various options are presented?

The record, from published administration memoirs and in-depth reporting, is one of an administration with a very small group of six or eight real decision-makers, who were set on war from the beginning and who took great pains to shut out arguments from professionals in the CIA and State Department and the U.S. armed forces that contradicted their rosy scenarios about easy victory. Much has been written about the neoconservative hand guiding the Bush presidency--and it is peculiar that one who was fired from the National Security Council in the Reagan administration for suspicion of passing classified material to the Israeli embassy and another who has written position papers for an Israeli Likud Party leader have become key players in the making of American foreign policy.

But neoconservatism now encompasses much more than Israel-obsessed intellectuals and policy insiders. The Bush foreign policy also surfs on deep currents within the Christian Right, some of which see unqualified support of Israel as part of a godly plan to bring about Armageddon and the future kingdom of Christ. These two strands of Jewish and Christian extremism build on one another in the Bush presidency--and President Bush has given not the slightest indication he would restrain either in a second term. With Colin Powell's departure from the State Department looming, Bush is more than ever the "neoconian candidate." The only way Americans will have a presidency in which neoconservatives and the Christian Armageddon set are not holding the reins of power is if Kerry is elected.

If Kerry wins, this magazine will be in opposition from Inauguration Day forward. But the most important battles will take place within the Republican Party and the conservative movement. A Bush defeat will ignite a huge soul-searching within the rank-and-file of Republicandom: a quest to find out how and where the Bush presidency went wrong. And it is then that more traditional conservatives will have an audience to argue for a conservatism informed by the lessons of history, based in prudence and a sense of continuity with the American past--and to make that case without a powerful White House pulling in the opposite direction.

George W. Bush has come to embody a politics that is antithetical to almost any kind of thoughtful conservatism. His international policies have been based on the hopelessly naive belief that foreign peoples are eager to be liberated by American armies--a notion more grounded in Leon Trotsky's concept of global revolution than any sort of conservative statecraft. His immigration policies--temporarily put on hold while he runs for re-election--are just as extreme. A re-elected President Bush would be committed to bringing in millions of low-wage immigrants to do jobs Americans "won't do." This election is all about George W. Bush, and those issues are enough to render him unworthy of any conservative support.

Copyright © 2004 The American Conservative

Reprinted from The American Conservative:
http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover1.html
If it helps to understand the difficult choice (in many people's minds - obviously not here tho lol ) I really liked this by Jonathan Rauch. He's titled it "Bus hIs Not A Safe Pair Of Hands. But Is Kerry?"


"There is nothing wrong with Kerry's senatorial "flip-flops." Maneuvering is what senators do. More disturbing has been his irresolution on Iraq since becoming a presidential candidate. Most disturbing of all is that, with only days to go before the election, I still don't feel I have a handle on what he is really all about. Perhaps Kerry is the scion of Dukakism, the doctrine that the election is about competence, not ideology. But Kerry is running for president, not city manager. I don't believe he is an empty suit. I just wish I knew what was inside the suit. I can understand why my father fears that Kerry might be captured by the Left.

Bush is a dynamic leader, but he lacks what a president most needs guardrails. Kerry has guardrails, but where is the road? A dispiriting choice.

What's a Swimmer to do? It helps to remember that the presidency matters a lot, but not quite as much as most people think. And that muddling through usually works out passably well. And that it is always darkest before the dawn, and you'll never walk alone, and tomorrow is another day.

Think on that. And have a Prozac."
http//nationaljournal.com/rauch.htm

If you want to hammer it home some more, the pro-war WasPo has endorsed Kerry. It's a very good read, and suprizingly fair to both candidates.
http//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57584-2004Oct23.html?sub=AR
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